As a man with a touch of the ‘tism it’s funny to me how the one thing here I seem expert on is how to tell when someone wants to pay vs when they want to be polite
Very cool article once again. I'm just puzzled. What exactly is 'negging" for you ? Because I'm really like to tease people I like. And also like to be teased. Would you recommand not to on dates ? Or at least first ones ?
(Pandora here) Negging is an insecurity based pick up artist strategy that I honestly don't know much about but I think it's like backhanded compliments and such! I think playful banter is generally a good idea with most people, as a signal of security. If people can't accept a little banter, probably they are not going to be compatible if that's something you enjoy. But still, you may want to escalate banter similarly to how you escalate physical touch, and be attuned to how she reacts. Banter is flirting and good flirting is attuned flirting.
Okay makes sense, I imagine that the difference for you on the receiving end, is that playful banter is explicit in that "whatever the topic was, it's just a pretense to be a joke/have fun with each other"(in a way that's we both are social enough to understand we have fun, by doing things that only works because we both know each other appreciate the other person). While negging, would not be about you both sharing laugh, but rather trying to make you understand he values you "less". Or like he's "giving you a favor by going out with you"
Am I one of the lucky ones here who loves to date? I always start with a first date picnic...setup something simple with chairs on the water, a bottle of wine, and a little food. I make it clear we are going to talk first - and that's it. But many times, thats not only it, and it goes further...because we talked and I listened for hours to get to know each other...
I always felt it was “gentlemanly” to let a girl / woman make the first physical contact. I don’t want to immediately hit a “stop” sign, or cause her to pull away. Maybe it’s a character flaw, but I want anything physical to be ABSOLUTELY MUTUAL. If I’m with you, *of course* I want physical contact. If I didn’t find you attractive, I wouldn’t be with you, so that’s kind of a moot point. I will reflect what I’m shown, but I’m kind of dense in that I don’t take cues easily.
Oh goodness, we certainly don't think it's a character flaw to want physicality to be based in mutual desire. We want that too! For some women (including Chesed), making the first physical move feels uncomfortable. We really appreciate those who pick up on subtle cues that we want contact, but we also understand that this can be difficult.
You’re both right, of course. It’s different now. Guys don’t want to be accused of harassment. In fact, a lot are terrified of it. Asking a co-worker out these days is like reaching for the 3rd rail of the subway track.
In my case, I would assume an accidental touch wasn’t accidental, and I’d take it from there.
I'm curious. You said that "if I'm with you,*of course* I want physical contact". But why would she think that ? And if you think others should infer that from a date with you, then how can't you do it about her ?
LH, for reasons I explained! If I’m interested in someone, I wouldn’t want to start out by crossing some line. True, if she’s on a date, she might be interested in physicality, too, but I’d rather try to put her at ease by showing that’s not *all* I’m interested in. First step, safety - I won’t hurt her. Does that make sense?
I understand your desire to not act first as to not overstep consent, but why do you think girls should think "if he's here with me, OF COURSE he wants to have a physical contact" ?
Oh, I’m sure I got “friend zoned” a lot. But I’d rather have a willing partner in ALL areas. I’d prefer she feel safe enough to initiate a good night kiss, hand holding, or hug. She’d find me willing.
I mean paying for the date is not a “free attraction point.” You literally just paid for that attraction point with money. Money that you had to earn working long hours at a job that you hate. But that’s dating. Women are valued for their bodies. Men are valued for their wallets. As high minded as we try to pretend to be as a society, for all the talk about wanting to see each other as human beings. When it all comes down to it, people only care about what they can get out of each other.
Interesting — especially the reminder that clarity doesn’t kill the vibe, it builds it. That limbo zone between “had a nice time!” and actual interest is where so many good connections die.
I ended up building a small tool called Charmly (https://charmly.replit.app) for that exact reason — it helps people craft replies in dating convos with more intention and tone. Not ghost-avoidant scripts, just responses that actually reflect what you mean (sweet, flirty, direct, or even a polite exit). Totally a side hobby, but if you’re into clean follow-up energy, I’d love feedback!
As a man with a touch of the ‘tism it’s funny to me how the one thing here I seem expert on is how to tell when someone wants to pay vs when they want to be polite
Very cool article once again. I'm just puzzled. What exactly is 'negging" for you ? Because I'm really like to tease people I like. And also like to be teased. Would you recommand not to on dates ? Or at least first ones ?
(Pandora here) Negging is an insecurity based pick up artist strategy that I honestly don't know much about but I think it's like backhanded compliments and such! I think playful banter is generally a good idea with most people, as a signal of security. If people can't accept a little banter, probably they are not going to be compatible if that's something you enjoy. But still, you may want to escalate banter similarly to how you escalate physical touch, and be attuned to how she reacts. Banter is flirting and good flirting is attuned flirting.
Okay makes sense, I imagine that the difference for you on the receiving end, is that playful banter is explicit in that "whatever the topic was, it's just a pretense to be a joke/have fun with each other"(in a way that's we both are social enough to understand we have fun, by doing things that only works because we both know each other appreciate the other person). While negging, would not be about you both sharing laugh, but rather trying to make you understand he values you "less". Or like he's "giving you a favor by going out with you"
Am I one of the lucky ones here who loves to date? I always start with a first date picnic...setup something simple with chairs on the water, a bottle of wine, and a little food. I make it clear we are going to talk first - and that's it. But many times, thats not only it, and it goes further...because we talked and I listened for hours to get to know each other...
I always felt it was “gentlemanly” to let a girl / woman make the first physical contact. I don’t want to immediately hit a “stop” sign, or cause her to pull away. Maybe it’s a character flaw, but I want anything physical to be ABSOLUTELY MUTUAL. If I’m with you, *of course* I want physical contact. If I didn’t find you attractive, I wouldn’t be with you, so that’s kind of a moot point. I will reflect what I’m shown, but I’m kind of dense in that I don’t take cues easily.
Comments?
Oh goodness, we certainly don't think it's a character flaw to want physicality to be based in mutual desire. We want that too! For some women (including Chesed), making the first physical move feels uncomfortable. We really appreciate those who pick up on subtle cues that we want contact, but we also understand that this can be difficult.
If both players are using this strategy in a Tit for Tat manner, no one will ever make the first move and therefore (alas) there will be no Tit
You’re both right, of course. It’s different now. Guys don’t want to be accused of harassment. In fact, a lot are terrified of it. Asking a co-worker out these days is like reaching for the 3rd rail of the subway track.
In my case, I would assume an accidental touch wasn’t accidental, and I’d take it from there.
I'm curious. You said that "if I'm with you,*of course* I want physical contact". But why would she think that ? And if you think others should infer that from a date with you, then how can't you do it about her ?
I don't think it's great to expect other to feel that.
LH, for reasons I explained! If I’m interested in someone, I wouldn’t want to start out by crossing some line. True, if she’s on a date, she might be interested in physicality, too, but I’d rather try to put her at ease by showing that’s not *all* I’m interested in. First step, safety - I won’t hurt her. Does that make sense?
Wrong attitude? Over-complicated?
I understand your desire to not act first as to not overstep consent, but why do you think girls should think "if he's here with me, OF COURSE he wants to have a physical contact" ?
Yeah you’re screwing yourself over.
If you don’t touch her at all, then she’s less likely to be interested in you and less likely to think you’re interested in her
Oh, I’m sure I got “friend zoned” a lot. But I’d rather have a willing partner in ALL areas. I’d prefer she feel safe enough to initiate a good night kiss, hand holding, or hug. She’d find me willing.
A lot of women who might otherwise be interested in you are not going to initiate
I know, Kayla. It’s my upbringing. I was taught to be “nice” to girls and women, and “keep your hands to yourself”. So I have.
Having said that, I will make the first move, but rarely. Rejection really hurts.
I mean paying for the date is not a “free attraction point.” You literally just paid for that attraction point with money. Money that you had to earn working long hours at a job that you hate. But that’s dating. Women are valued for their bodies. Men are valued for their wallets. As high minded as we try to pretend to be as a society, for all the talk about wanting to see each other as human beings. When it all comes down to it, people only care about what they can get out of each other.
Interesting — especially the reminder that clarity doesn’t kill the vibe, it builds it. That limbo zone between “had a nice time!” and actual interest is where so many good connections die.
I ended up building a small tool called Charmly (https://charmly.replit.app) for that exact reason — it helps people craft replies in dating convos with more intention and tone. Not ghost-avoidant scripts, just responses that actually reflect what you mean (sweet, flirty, direct, or even a polite exit). Totally a side hobby, but if you’re into clean follow-up energy, I’d love feedback!